Posts by Bona Dea

21

Do you think JW men treat women worst than 'other' men in power?

by BLISSISIGNORANCE in

jw
friends

i ask this question because we often hear about jw men (bros., elders, servants, co's etc.

) treating sisters as lower and weaker beings than themselves.. but i wonder if it's not just a male-dominant world problem.

i didn't grow up as a jw so every male i met for 30 years was not a jw.

Bona Dea

You know, Scarlet, that's real easy to say when you're not the one in the situation. For some of us, it's not as simple as just being sick of it and getting out. Generally, there are a lot more factors in the equation. I know that I would've said the same thing as you did to someone years ago, at least until I found myself in a controlling relationship. I didn't choose for my life to be this way, yet it is. I try to make the best of it for now, until I get on my feet again...and I realize, I have little choice but to stay where I am for now, whether I like it or not. Sometimes life hands you lemons...and well, forgets to give you the tools to make lemonade. You do the best you can, until you can do better. Don't judge until you've walked a mile in someone else's shoes...

Sadie of the "whining crying baby" class

21

Do you think JW men treat women worst than 'other' men in power?

by BLISSISIGNORANCE in

jw
friends

i ask this question because we often hear about jw men (bros., elders, servants, co's etc.

) treating sisters as lower and weaker beings than themselves.. but i wonder if it's not just a male-dominant world problem.

i didn't grow up as a jw so every male i met for 30 years was not a jw.

Bona Dea

I don't think that this problem is in no way exclusive to the JWs. You will find abusive men and women in any religion, race, walk of life. BUT, somewhat building on what Xander has said, Christianity (and actually, not just Christianity...but other religions as well...just look at the Muslims) promote, to some degree, the male superiority to the lesser female. This would feed, say, your average Joe Beatshiswife and give him a haven, so to speak, where he could live out his life, treating his wife as badly as he wishes and even, in some cases, earn himself a pat on the back from his fellow brothers for keeping his family properly aligned.

My husband, however, has gotten somewhat better since he has joined the witness ranks. Before he was physically, emotionally and mentally abusive. Now, he's just the latter two. And it's not as blatant as it once was. He has adapted the skill of manipulation (which goes so well with his already existant controlling nature) so that it isn't as obvious to outsiders as it once was. Good for him! He has learned something from the Borg after all. At least, I'm only getting mentally tortured now...I'm just happy I'm not getting strangled and beaten anymore (praise Jah )...

Sadie

45

Did you leave the Borg 'in search of truth' or 'freedom from rules'?

by BLISSISIGNORANCE in

jw
friends

this question is not to offend anyone, it's just that i have noticed people have many different reasons for leaving the borg and i thought it would be interesting to find out why some of you left.. for example:some leave because they want to be free to smoke, drink, gamble, fornicate, grow beards, celebrate xmas, take blood and drugs, etc.some leave because they never believed and now are old enough to do as they want.some leave because they have seen that they can be happy living life free from any religious organization, yet still feel safe in god's love.some have been hurt by the borg and have taken their wounds away to lick them, waiting to see justice.some have trusted the borg with their lives, time and money...........only to discover recently that there has been lies, cover-ups and hypocracy in the borg.

now they have left but need to belong to another organization to feel happy.. i left the borg because i found out about the cover-ups and lies.

my family was abused by it, my child was sexually abused and i was df'ed.

Bona Dea

Technically, I was never "in" (never baptized) but I did adhere to the JW teachings and refrained from the things that they had taught me was displeasing to Jehovah.

Admittedly, I loved the time that I was a part of them. I felt an abundance of love, but perhaps this was because I wasn't yet baptized...of that, I'll never know. I enjoyed spending time with the brothers and sisters, and we were, in our own way, a little family. We did almost everything together. Vacations, leisure time, all except living together (LOL). And I loved it. I loved them. It wasn't until I found out about the UN scandal that the shades slowly began to fall from my eyes. Then Silentlambs. Then I found this site and links to the twisted WT literature...the distortions of quoted remarks, the underlying discouragement of using one's own conscience and of independence, the emphasis of relying completely on the organization for understanding of the bible. I hadn't realized the importance that the WTS (as a matter of fact, our study partners had gone out of their way to downplay the reliance that the R&F have on the WTS) played in these people's lives.

After finding these things out, I was prompted to ask one of the elders about these things. He simply told me that if he believed one way, and they told him that he must ignore what he thought and teach and spread the message as they had taught him...that he would go against what his own conscience was telling him and put his faith in Jehovah. That Jehovah would either correct his thinking on the matter or work things out within the organization. He would continue teach people something he didn't even believe himself. Go into these people's homes and out and out lie. I was floored. I didn't realize the kind of grip this organization had on it's followers until that moment. I stopped attending the meetings and only went back to a couple of my husband's talks (TMS). Only then did I hear things in those meetings that I'd never noticed before. The statements that no one else can come to a true understanding of the bible without the aid of the FDS, the discouragement of helping charities. After the memorial service last year, when I felt I had given Jesus Christ a good slap in the face by rejecting the emblems, I told my husband that I would never set foot back inside a Kingdom Hall ever again. And I haven't.

Yes, I had a problem with the "rules"...but I felt that the witnesses had showed me knowledge that I had never had regarding what pleases and displeases Jehovah. It was a small price to pay if I was making Jehovah happy. It wasn't until I found out what hypocrites the WTS were that I began to really investigate their "scriptural" basis for their rigid rules as well. And I found they were more Phariseeic (sp?) than anything. Paul had stated in his letters that one must use their own conscience regarding these things (sabbath, eating meat, observance of certain days). Heck, even the first century christians weren't handing down commands, but instead were encouraging their followers to use their own conscience and not to stumble their brothers. It wasn't until I re-read the bible without the JW slant, that I felt that Jehovah could care less whether or not my husband had a beard, I put up a Christmas tree, or worked out at the local YMCA.

My husband has somehow convinced himself that I stopped attending meetings just because I wanted to do holidays again. He couldn't be farther from right.

Great thread (sorry so long-winded )

Sadie

37

This board like a headache

by Bhagavad in

jw
friends

this board has become very painful.

i've given it many chances.

so many posters do not know what the apostrophe is for or is not for.

Bona Dea

So many posters do not know what the apostrophe is for or is not for.

--You just ended that sentence with a preposition, moron!!! Put that in your pompous, know-it-all, grammatically correct ass and blow!!!!!!!!!

Sadie

57

Verses that bothered you as a JW

by JH in

we find god's name "jehovah" so many times in the old testament, but not at all in the new testament.

jesus is called a "mighty god" in the bible.

jesus is also called "father".

Bona Dea

[quote]When I wasn't paying attention to the speaker I usually found myself reading random chapters of the Bible.[/quote]

LOL....now, that statement brings back memories...

I used to peruse the bible during the talks and find verses such as (during the Isaiah book study) "Jehovah alone is Savior and besides me there is no other"??(paraphrased) But I thought Jesus was the Savior? "Jehovah created the earth by himself" (again paraphrased) But I thought Jesus created the earth and all things in it (Colossians). I came across a verse in 1 Cor 10:1-4, that really blew my mind. IMHO, these are blatant contradictions, unless of course you buy into the whole trinity concept...

Also, the fact that God is just the opposite of my idea of just:

-He punishes the poor old Pharaoh for believing Sarah and Abrahams lie (Gen 12:7) -- talk about misguided punishment. That would be like me grounding my son when my daughter choked the dog. How stupid!

-The entire story of Pharaoh, the ten plagues on Egypt, the hardening of Pharaoh's heart by God, and the punishment that the people received as a result of that hardening, especially those poor little children (What did they do wrong?) and even the stinking livestock (what'd they do? Graze in the field just a little too long? )...just so that Jehovah's "wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt." (ie so that he can show everyone just what a big tough God he really is) (Ex 11:9)

-The treatment of women (Gen 19:8, Ex 21:7-8, Lev 19:20)

-The treatment of the lame (Lev 21:16-23. Num 5:1-4)

-Why does an Almighty God need the sacrifice of an innocent animal anyhow? I ask myself, if I were a deity, what would I do with all that blood?

-Witches, homosexuals, disobedient children, adulterers: all of these were considered "stone"-worthy offenses, yet you could own people and beat your slave near to death (just so long as you didn't kill them and they are up and about after 3 days), you could have sex with your daughters, and have a man killed so that you could marry his wife and remain in God's favor. Moses just smacks a rock and he doesn't even get to enter the promised land. How's that for fairness?

A few other things bother me about the bible, most of which I discovered while studying with the witnesse: The thing that Greven mentioned, the NT and the OT seem completely contradictory. The story about the guy carrying the ark of the covenent who grabbed it to keep it from falling and he dies as a result. Abraham willingness to sacrifice Issac. The story of Noah's ark is about as realistic as the Neverending Story.

I could go on and on...but I won't.

Brummie, that verse always got me too. According to the JWs, none of those OT prophets and wise men will be a part of the 144K. Actually the JWs will get the privilege to enlighten these old guys during the 1000 yr reign when everyone is "coming back to life". JW arrogance at it's best!!

Fun thread, really (in an odd sort of way)...

Sadie

17

I'm curious. Are there sites which severely criticize other religions?

by berylblue in

jw
friends

i am asking this because i was always taught that the reason there are so many anti-wts sites is because witnesses have the true religion, and are therefore a special target of satan.

satan already "has" the persons in all the other religions, so he doesn't need to whip them up into a frenzy over the lamentable things going on in their particular churches.

satan does, however, use persons (ostensibly, like me) to slander the true god and his organization.

Bona Dea

Berylblue,

I am so glad that you brought this up. This was also a concern of mine, as this was brought to my attention by an elder as I was leaving the borg. He challenged me to type in any religion and promised me that I would not find anywhere near the amount of "anti" sites for any other religion as I would for the JWs. That this was an indication that they alone were truly being persecuted. So, I did it. And sure enough, if you just search for baptist, mormon, or whatever you will not find the kind of opposing sites like you will find on a JW search. But instead try searching for exmormons, exbaptists...etc, and you will.

But I think Elsewhere did an excellent job explaining the reason you don't find many "pro" JW sites. Having personal sites developed to explain the JW belief system (jeez, just being on the Internet) is strongly discouraged by the WTS...so, naturally the rank and file are going to follow the "light" they are given on this issue (will find when you search for "Jehovah's Witnesses" is going to be watchtower.org.

Wow, Elsewhere...I'm blown away by that because that never even occurred to me before (

Sadie

18

Another Busted Family

by 95stormfront in

jw
friends

it seems the wt god has successfully busted up another family.. my wife informed me that one of her friends husband gave her an ultimatum; it's goona be either the jw religion or him and she chose to follow wt doctrine rather than keep her family together.

another who's so-called taken stand for the trooth.

my wife is just berating the guy for leaving his family, but in my opinion it was not he who left, but his wife.

Bona Dea

It is hard to unbiasedly say one way or the other. Chances are he knew what the results of that action would be. But I know, from experience, how difficult it is to live with a JW once you are no longer a part of the truth...and it ain't easy. I would relate this type of ultimatum to the scenario of the spouse forcing the other spouse to decide between their family or an alcohol addiction, an affair, or anything else that attempted to destroy the relationships that they had. I can't imagine the WTS having no affect whatsoever on the relationship between that man and his wife, or that wife and their children...and even harder to imagine that attempts were not made by the JWs to make that relationship almost impossibly difficult.

It is maddening to live with someone who has a religion that demands so much of their time, attention, and their life. Even more maddening when you are expected to live with it -- like it or not -- and watch your children grow to think this is the way it should be.

Sadie

18

Now that you are EXJW, what do you teach your children about Spirituality?

by LyinEyes in

jw
friends

most of you know that my youngest son, 8, is a little worry wart.......he is always worrying about death, mainly me dying.

he has been to doctors when he was younger for ptsd, ocd, and addh.

what are you doing in teaching your children spiritual things?

Bona Dea

Hi LyinEyes,

It is very hard with children. As adults we can read...we can research and make informed decisions. But children rely on us to guide them and show them the way. My husband is still in the troof. I am not. I have no idea what I believe anymore. I believe there is a creator...although I'm not even sure of that sometimes. As far as death is concerned, I tell my kids (they are 7 and 4) the truth...I just don't know. I tell them I hope and I believe (but also that hope and belief is not the same as certainty) that we will be together in another place when we die. I know that doesn't hold much appeal compared to my husband drilling the old paradise earth into their heads, but I just can't bring myself to even attempt to pass something off as absolute truth when I know that I don't know what happens when we die. I cannot pretend that I do.

As far as religion goes, I have started reading them an illustrated book of World Religions that I got from the library and I plan to buy later on. I've also read them some Native American books that explain how some of the different tribes believed we came into being. The kids love it. They are completely fascinated by it; all the symbols, deities, rituals. I explain to them that I don't believe in these religions either but that it is important to know what others believe and why. I read the introduction of the World Religions book which gave an awesome overview of religion and why religion is so important to people. I know that they probably don't understand a lot but it is a start. I just want them to know all they can about all their options as far as a belief system (or lack of) is concerned instead of them just following the mainstream beliefs or what is being forced down their throats. And I do not want to bias them in any direction or to coerce them into following any particular thing. I'll just teach them all I can about all I can and they can decide later on (I mean, this is a big decision for a 7 and 4 year old to make) what to do with that information. Regardless of what they choose I will support them and always love them. Right now, my chief goal is to instill values and a sense of right and wrong in them...teach them to just be good people.

And much as I hate to, in answer to many of their mind-boggling question, the words "I don't know" will just have to suffice....because do any of us really know. Hopefully one day they will see, that I am just a person. I didn't have the answers because no one really does, and I was simply honest enough to admit it.

Sadie

10

Commentary/Survey: The Necessity for God to Destroy Evil Individuals

by Derrick in

jw
friends

it's time to wake up and smell the coffee.

the world trade center and other acts of terrorism highlight the necessity for god to exterminate not only those behind these mass murders such as members of the al quaida network but all evil individuals worldwide engaging in crime.

forget the watchtower society's pet pieves about who is evil and who qualifies for destruction.

Bona Dea

Why not instead acknowledge the simple fact that humanity is doomed to extinction without the intervention of a Higher Power to cleanse this planet of all vestiges of evil?

What do YOU think about my comments? Do you believe that civilization can continue on this course without supernatural intervention by an Advanced Intelligence from deep space or beyond?

I think that the world places itself in far more danger by falling into this state of reasoning. We hurt ourselves by adapting the mentality that some superbeing (someone...anyone besides us) is going to have intervene and straighten things out.

When people learn to take responsibility for their own actions and the consequences those actions yield...When people STOP blaming everything that goes wrong on the likes of Satan or God (Bad people, just like good people, are just born...no demons involved, just genetics)...When people STOP sitting around "waiting on Jehovah" to restore mankind and save us from ourselves...When people get up off their bums and say, "we did this to ourselves and we must find a way to make things right"...When people stop being the children that religion cripples them into being, waiting on big daddy to put the proverbial "bandaid on the broken arm", then and ONLY then can we begin to "fix" our world.

Solutions come from people who have come to realize that there is no superman, spiderman, batman, god...no super heroes who are going to rescue us from our problems.

Just my 0.02

Sadie

9

On the flip side... a question for those not raised as a jw

by TheSilence in

jw
friends

okay, someone recently asked if those raised as jws felt they would have gone for it as adults.

my question is for those of you not raised as a jw, what convinced you that it really was "the truth"?

ive often wondered and come upon my own theories as to why people join this religion, but i find that when friends ask me what makes people join i cant really answer in a way that they understand.. jackie

Bona Dea

This is a tough question. I couldn't narrow it down to just one specific thing. As lame as this sounds, I really liked our study partners. And contrary to a lot of things that are said on this board about witnesses being slightly dense, this particular couple was intelligent and the conversations we had concerning the bible and outside of "study", I felt were intellectually stimulating. I was definitely a dumb christian. I was one of those who just believed in God and the bible and all that mess because my mama, my mama's mama, and my mama's mama's mama...etc (you get the picture) did. I had no idea why I believed in the trinity, hell, and all those other things that they knock on your door with every intention of debunking. I had been in and out of church most of my life but had, for about five years, been pretty "busy" in the church with things like choir, youth choir/drama (oddly, I was the director), singing solos, being in a "christian" singing group called one accord (I liked to sing; can you tell?) but I didn't know squat about why I was a christian other than I just was.

I had gotten out of the church, after a bad experience, and had looked into several other beliefs systems...mainly nature based such as wicca, pantheism, etc but had really found anything that stuck. During the time I had left christianity, I had gotten a divorce, had a baby illegimately, and married a control-freak who had given me the choice of either giving up my friends or him leaving me. I am still married to this man. After I married him, I felt a loneliness like I've never felt in my life. He was very insecure and didn't want me working (in order to control my contact with other people), he didn't like me talking to anyone...and I was really ashamed to anyway. I tried to maintain a cool disposition so that my family would think that I was blissfully married and hadn't screwed up my life again. As far as my friends were concerned they didn't like the fact that he didn't like them and didn't want me around them, but they didn't want to make things any harder for me, so they backed off. The witnesses showed up on my door and I didn't want to talk to them, at first. But once I did, I really liked them and I started looking forward to them coming. I was very apprehensive about talking to them but they did things that other churches never did for me. They taught me. They opened the bible and showed me why I should believe what they were saying to me.

I always told my mom that I would never be baptized. And I never was and never will be. Many things I questioned so much that I knew baptism would be completely out of the question...ever. Too many scriptures I would find that contradicted what the witnesses were teaching...too many scriptures that contradicted other scriptures (although I wouldn't admit that to myself at the time). I found out about their involvement with the UN, then I stumbled over silentlambs.org, then I found a site that showed quotations from their own literature that proved that they strongly discourage independent thinking, and it was like a snowball affect....and the rest is history. Looking back, I find it amazing that I believed even a small percentage of the things I did. And I don't know how they ever convinced me of some of those things. It was just such a slow and deliberate process that I didn't know what had happened until it had already happened. If they had just come right out from the get-go and announced, hey we believe Jesus Christ is reigning invisibly from heaven right now and has been since 1914 and he was Michael the archangel...and we are the sole representatives of Jehovah God, himself and he only speaks through us....I would have shown them the door.

Sadie